This is an unpopular take, but ultimately merits consideration. Provide your own “not alls.”
Women have agency, obviously. Women also have innately different motivations and values engagements with the broader world. Although the easy weapon to wield against this argument is to point to men and demand “what about?”
But this problem is different from the huge problem men have (largely with pornography). It isn’t as much about men’s problematic gaze as about women’s problematic gaze. And digital ubiquity of faces/figures which could have launched Greece’s ships Troyward.
A long way of saying: modesty is as much, if not more, to protect women from one another/themselves as it is about protecting from predatory men.
This was funny juxtaposed with the naked Venus behind you.
And I read somewhere that in countries where women are very covered up they also have higher rates of cancer because they are vitamin D deficient due to lack of sunlight on skin.
Now now Louise you only answered the question for young girls. Bit of a Dodge on answering it for older women. Not your intent I'm sure but this video needs an amendment don't you think?😉
"It's not uncommon to see girls going to school near where we live who are wearing skirts so short that if they're going upstairs in front of you you can see absolutely everything."
School uniforms are an unfashionable idea, but this is the sort of thing they're here to prevent.
Not sure you can win on this. In Victorian times men used to hot and bothered by a glimpse of an ankle. And modesty changes depending on what region or country you are in. Don't get me wrong I don't believe people should walk around "half-exposed" as my mother would say. (Another line of hers was "don't flaunt what you ain't got."). I just think it is a moving target for a lot of women. Sometimes just looking pretty and wholesome can bring out the cad in the type that love the idea of despoiling the innocent.
The comment on how the extremely strict female dress codes of the Arab world come with a massive trade-off in terms of practicality makes me wonder - there is exactly one case of modesty and practicality coming into similar conflict for western women. Where do you stand on public breastfeeding?
On the flip side of course Men tend to much poorer at reading subtle social cues and teenage boys even less so. They often aren’t aware when a girl is interested in them. As a result girls resort to skimpy/revealing clothing to make their interest blindingly obvious.
You can't exactly do this selectively, though. I'm sceptical that revealing clothing is intended as a targeted signal towards an individual guy, when everyone sees the same outfit.
I think for men from extremely conservative cultures, they read the skimpiness of dress as “I want sexual advances (in general)” or “stay away from me and don’t even try.” Kind of like a store’s “open” sign. At least, that’s what some of the men have said after mass sexual assaults on Cologne, for instance.
Girls dressing to look as desirable as possible seems neither modern nor new. If you look at Bronze Age outfits like the what was found with the Egtved Girl, you find a crop top and a short skirt, pretty close to the outfits of the modern girls you describe (arguably even more daring with the semi-transparent aspect of the skirt).
it seems like we have a deep innate drive to signal our desirability to the best of our ability. I am not sure it is healthy to repress that, even if it is important to understand that it is broadcasting wide and might hit further than your target group.
Reminds me of this recent piece by John Carter:
https://open.substack.com/pub/barsoom/p/digital-purdah-as-a-solution-to-female?r=2a79er&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
This is an unpopular take, but ultimately merits consideration. Provide your own “not alls.”
Women have agency, obviously. Women also have innately different motivations and values engagements with the broader world. Although the easy weapon to wield against this argument is to point to men and demand “what about?”
But this problem is different from the huge problem men have (largely with pornography). It isn’t as much about men’s problematic gaze as about women’s problematic gaze. And digital ubiquity of faces/figures which could have launched Greece’s ships Troyward.
A long way of saying: modesty is as much, if not more, to protect women from one another/themselves as it is about protecting from predatory men.
This was funny juxtaposed with the naked Venus behind you.
And I read somewhere that in countries where women are very covered up they also have higher rates of cancer because they are vitamin D deficient due to lack of sunlight on skin.
Yes! Melanoma tends to appear on patches of skin that *never* get any sun exposure. Intelligent sun exposure is anti-cancer.
Now now Louise you only answered the question for young girls. Bit of a Dodge on answering it for older women. Not your intent I'm sure but this video needs an amendment don't you think?😉
"It's not uncommon to see girls going to school near where we live who are wearing skirts so short that if they're going upstairs in front of you you can see absolutely everything."
School uniforms are an unfashionable idea, but this is the sort of thing they're here to prevent.
Not sure you can win on this. In Victorian times men used to hot and bothered by a glimpse of an ankle. And modesty changes depending on what region or country you are in. Don't get me wrong I don't believe people should walk around "half-exposed" as my mother would say. (Another line of hers was "don't flaunt what you ain't got."). I just think it is a moving target for a lot of women. Sometimes just looking pretty and wholesome can bring out the cad in the type that love the idea of despoiling the innocent.
Victorian Men did not have an ankle obsession. Bernadette Banner covers this, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fSxQHQ_1gX4&pp=ygUac2F1Y3kgVmljdG9yaWFuIGFua2xlIHBpY3M%3D.
The comment on how the extremely strict female dress codes of the Arab world come with a massive trade-off in terms of practicality makes me wonder - there is exactly one case of modesty and practicality coming into similar conflict for western women. Where do you stand on public breastfeeding?
On the flip side of course Men tend to much poorer at reading subtle social cues and teenage boys even less so. They often aren’t aware when a girl is interested in them. As a result girls resort to skimpy/revealing clothing to make their interest blindingly obvious.
You can't exactly do this selectively, though. I'm sceptical that revealing clothing is intended as a targeted signal towards an individual guy, when everyone sees the same outfit.
I think for men from extremely conservative cultures, they read the skimpiness of dress as “I want sexual advances (in general)” or “stay away from me and don’t even try.” Kind of like a store’s “open” sign. At least, that’s what some of the men have said after mass sexual assaults on Cologne, for instance.
Girls dressing to look as desirable as possible seems neither modern nor new. If you look at Bronze Age outfits like the what was found with the Egtved Girl, you find a crop top and a short skirt, pretty close to the outfits of the modern girls you describe (arguably even more daring with the semi-transparent aspect of the skirt).
https://blog.education.nationalgeographic.org/2015/05/22/the-modern-life-of-a-bronze-age-woman/
it seems like we have a deep innate drive to signal our desirability to the best of our ability. I am not sure it is healthy to repress that, even if it is important to understand that it is broadcasting wide and might hit further than your target group.